Sorry for my English.
The official rules of Russian draughts have the following restrictions:
1. In a 32 moves without changing the ratio of forces-a draw;
2. Three Kings against one - 15 moves to achieve victory, otherwise a draw; (If they own the A1-h8 diagonal)
Rule "both players play 15 moves in a 4- or 5-piece ending" is very unfair!
With optimal protection, three Kings catch one in 12 moves. Imagine the position: white Kings a1, e1, man c1, black King a5, man a3. This is the standard ending won for white. Man c1 is held. Only this can take 15 moves. After that, again the standard ending is three kings against a king and a man. There are 10 more moves to build the loop. Then the weak side can give the man and will build a Petrov triangle. Moreover, these constructions are not very complex, but according to the current rules it will be a draw.
I make a little Study to confirm the words. lidraughts.org/study/03TyVh6J
This rule comes from the FMJD at fmjd64.org/rules-of-the-game/
7.2.6. If the position in which the both opponents having kings have not changed the balance of pieces (ie, there was no capture and man did not become a king) for:
– To 4-and 5-pieces endings – 30 moves;
– In 6, and 7-pieces endings – 60 moves.
Possibly they mean 30 moves for each player here and not 30 moves in total? We will consult
Unfortunately, I played only in Russia and exclusively according to the rules of the Russian Draughts Federation. Now read on the specified link and there really so it is written. Apparently the question is more to FMJD. By the way, the Bogomol message contains an interesting batch. It seems that you do not take into account the paragraph from paragraph 7.2.6. "(ie, there was no capture and man did not become a king)", namely, the second part. Man to king is also a change in the balance of pieces. That would solve the problem.
It does take promotion into account, so that doesn't change anything for the Bogomol game. Promotion was on move 34 in that game, and 15 moves per player (30 moves total) are counted from that point.
Same is true of your study, there is always a capture or promotion within 15 moves (before the draw is forced). Can you give an example that should be winning, but is drawn because of rule 7.2.6 (no capture or promotion during 15 moves)?
You're right, I missed it. From my point of view, 15 moves is not enough, since in complex endings, posting a man to king can be a difficult task. But it's not for me to argue with FMJD. Thank you for your answers.
Nice point superNewb. I also never head of the rule like this. in Poland draw is called after 25 moves without moving a piece.
Here you need to think not only if the endgame is win but also when to promote to the king and if you have enough moves to get another one on.
This this end game you came up with is great example but in your studys one king did not defend best way, i think you can do better than it is imposible to promote king in 15 moves.
But the plus side is for sure this rule would cut off some wins on time to bad that it happens with winning positions.
But it is nice to have this discussions.
Definitely. I was in a bit of a hurry, so I didn't move the pieces optimally. And the starting position may be more inconvenient for the strongest side. However, this is hardly a problem of the lidraughts site, everything is done strictly according to the FMJD rules. Why there are such rules, I do not understand. For endings, the differences between the rules of Russian and Brazilian draughts do not matter much. But in Russian draughts, the endings are worked out deeply and there is a rule of thirty-two moves for a reason. There are restrictions only on the ratio of three Kings against one.
Moreover, the computer was used to find winning positions that are not enough for thirty-two moves. But this is rare.
Question about draw in Bogomol game. Why rule - "If both players play 15 kingmoves (any king) without captures or moving men, the game is drawn" was not applied ? Men "a3" was moved on the 40-th move, 42-th move etc.
I suppose this rule has higher priority to compare with rule "- draw after both players play 15 moves in a 4- or 5-piece ending"
As I remember, Lelio Marcos from Brazil and me has adopted chess (50 moves there) rule about "moving men" to Russian and Brazilian draughts for 1-st IMSA games in Beijing under umbrella FMJD. But it was 12 years ago (I left FMJD same date).
And FMJD rules could be changed many times last 12 years ).